Also, being from the Libertarian bent myself and feeling like it is something of a "culture trying to supplant two dominant cultures," such a transcendent culture is also met with as much, if not more hostility from both existent cultures. Don't be surprised if the Game A players put aside their differences to nip Game B in the bud before resuming the already scheduled culture war.
As much as I have tried to buck the system, the older I get the more I appreciate the traditional. I have tried listening to the Game Bers and the Religion-that-is-not-a-religion crowd. Neither of them make sense to me. Game Bers seem to be very smart but not understand human nature. The RTINAR crowd just bore the hell out me. We need something that captures our attention, enchants us and calls us to participate without being talked down to or coerced. Personally, I just think that the way Christianity was communicated during my lifetime (Gen Xer) didn't jive with the scientific rationalism, partly because they insisted that we take the bible literally. Recently, there has been much more of a symbolic mystical interpretation being encouraged. I think that this will be more successful with the psychedelic tingly feeling crowd mentioned. Either way, I anticipate that the folk American religion of the future will be a sychretic blend of Native, Eastern (Buddhist/Daoist/Vedic), and Christian traditions. Those who want to do sweat lodges and vision quests can do that. Those who want self cultivation/yoga/qigong practices can do that. Those who want to go on pilgrimage to temples and sacred places can do that. Those who want to sit around a table and share a meal while talking/singing about the sacred texts of the world can do that. All of these things will be part of the folk religion, where the Golden Rule; "don't lie, cheat or steal"; "don't murder"; and get into a committed relationship to produce children that benefit the most people possible will be tenants/morality goals of the average person. The fringe will always be the fringe, and will be tolerated/respected, but they will not be what most folks aspire to. And the military/police will be there to make sure that the passive and weak ones get protected from the others. I cannot speak for other cultures, but I don't see any reason why this could not become a truly universal religion. Either way, I always keep in mind that ~4% of the population is socio/psychopathic, meaning that they will always tend towards getting what they want at all costs, even if it means breaking all the tenants of the folk religion. This is why we will always need a military/police force/people with guns/weapons.
I got about 2/3 through that (while overlapping my lunch coma/nap time) and it go too convoluted to follow, at least in one reading. I fizzled out trying to wrap my head around your basic difference. Maybe you can try to summarize that to help people get to the nuances?
My guess is that Hall's idea that a conflict-transcending Game~B (Kegan Stage 5), "planetary" culture seems too utopian-hippy-new-age-california-ish? (see the excerpts from Ronfeldt on his TIMN model, in a separate comment.)
From the part I did read a few minor data points:
---
In Henrich's "WEIRD" model of the evolution of modern culture, the ban on cousin marriage by the early church (to break the power of clans - Game Dunbar) led to increased genetic variation and thus a bunch of complex feedback loops between co-emergent elements of what became liberal-capitalist-modernism that selected for higher IQ and "liberal personality traits". As time went by from about 500 AD to 1500 AD, the (agrarian-oral) feudal oath-bound loyalty system gave way to (urban-literate) modern-rationalist, high-social-trust institutions and "WEIRD" culture.
Jordan Hall mentioned Holland as being a crucial example of more pure WEIRD. This is one explanation of the genetics and history of super-WEIRD Holland:
In case you missed it, Jordan Hall had a discussion a while ago with John Vervaeke (cognitive scientist) about "The Religion Of No Religion" (on YouTube) which got down to the nuts and bolts of how to scale the Sam Harris type "solution".
iirc, Vervaeke published an article and/or interview on Stoa about that, having some kind of reference to Stoicism, a couple of years ago or more.
As far as I know, neither Hall or Vervaeke* has actually tried to create a new non-religion of that kind in a community setting, rather they are working out the theory required. Hall was talking about setting up an intentional community, school and research facility for a while, and then he RV'd around for a while looking, but nothing seems to have solidified.
As a side note: I would never compare JH (good) to Ken Wilber (bad in many ways), but KW tried to launch a more grand version of something like that in the late 90s, but it flopped and devolved into the current "Integral, Inc." project, which is mostly about generating enough cash flow from selling self-help stuff to keep funding more esoteric consciousness raising activities and theoretical projects.
* other than Vervaeke's extensive online course series on the "Sense Making Crisis"
"Whether we call that “culture war” or we call it “waging war on culture war by using the modes of culture war” is in the end, I think, semantic."
Just creating another culture in the war between cultures.
Reminds me of XKCD #927: https://xkcd.com/927/
Also, being from the Libertarian bent myself and feeling like it is something of a "culture trying to supplant two dominant cultures," such a transcendent culture is also met with as much, if not more hostility from both existent cultures. Don't be surprised if the Game A players put aside their differences to nip Game B in the bud before resuming the already scheduled culture war.
I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Oh, hey! Look at that! How convenient. 🤪
As much as I have tried to buck the system, the older I get the more I appreciate the traditional. I have tried listening to the Game Bers and the Religion-that-is-not-a-religion crowd. Neither of them make sense to me. Game Bers seem to be very smart but not understand human nature. The RTINAR crowd just bore the hell out me. We need something that captures our attention, enchants us and calls us to participate without being talked down to or coerced. Personally, I just think that the way Christianity was communicated during my lifetime (Gen Xer) didn't jive with the scientific rationalism, partly because they insisted that we take the bible literally. Recently, there has been much more of a symbolic mystical interpretation being encouraged. I think that this will be more successful with the psychedelic tingly feeling crowd mentioned. Either way, I anticipate that the folk American religion of the future will be a sychretic blend of Native, Eastern (Buddhist/Daoist/Vedic), and Christian traditions. Those who want to do sweat lodges and vision quests can do that. Those who want self cultivation/yoga/qigong practices can do that. Those who want to go on pilgrimage to temples and sacred places can do that. Those who want to sit around a table and share a meal while talking/singing about the sacred texts of the world can do that. All of these things will be part of the folk religion, where the Golden Rule; "don't lie, cheat or steal"; "don't murder"; and get into a committed relationship to produce children that benefit the most people possible will be tenants/morality goals of the average person. The fringe will always be the fringe, and will be tolerated/respected, but they will not be what most folks aspire to. And the military/police will be there to make sure that the passive and weak ones get protected from the others. I cannot speak for other cultures, but I don't see any reason why this could not become a truly universal religion. Either way, I always keep in mind that ~4% of the population is socio/psychopathic, meaning that they will always tend towards getting what they want at all costs, even if it means breaking all the tenants of the folk religion. This is why we will always need a military/police force/people with guns/weapons.
re: HWFO-vs-Game~B for dummies?
I got about 2/3 through that (while overlapping my lunch coma/nap time) and it go too convoluted to follow, at least in one reading. I fizzled out trying to wrap my head around your basic difference. Maybe you can try to summarize that to help people get to the nuances?
My guess is that Hall's idea that a conflict-transcending Game~B (Kegan Stage 5), "planetary" culture seems too utopian-hippy-new-age-california-ish? (see the excerpts from Ronfeldt on his TIMN model, in a separate comment.)
From the part I did read a few minor data points:
---
In Henrich's "WEIRD" model of the evolution of modern culture, the ban on cousin marriage by the early church (to break the power of clans - Game Dunbar) led to increased genetic variation and thus a bunch of complex feedback loops between co-emergent elements of what became liberal-capitalist-modernism that selected for higher IQ and "liberal personality traits". As time went by from about 500 AD to 1500 AD, the (agrarian-oral) feudal oath-bound loyalty system gave way to (urban-literate) modern-rationalist, high-social-trust institutions and "WEIRD" culture.
Jordan Hall mentioned Holland as being a crucial example of more pure WEIRD. This is one explanation of the genetics and history of super-WEIRD Holland:
(NON-PC WARNING)
https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/tag/medieval-netherlands/
Henrich on WEIRD: https://weirdpeople.fas.harvard.edu/
---
In case you missed it, Jordan Hall had a discussion a while ago with John Vervaeke (cognitive scientist) about "The Religion Of No Religion" (on YouTube) which got down to the nuts and bolts of how to scale the Sam Harris type "solution".
iirc, Vervaeke published an article and/or interview on Stoa about that, having some kind of reference to Stoicism, a couple of years ago or more.
As far as I know, neither Hall or Vervaeke* has actually tried to create a new non-religion of that kind in a community setting, rather they are working out the theory required. Hall was talking about setting up an intentional community, school and research facility for a while, and then he RV'd around for a while looking, but nothing seems to have solidified.
As a side note: I would never compare JH (good) to Ken Wilber (bad in many ways), but KW tried to launch a more grand version of something like that in the late 90s, but it flopped and devolved into the current "Integral, Inc." project, which is mostly about generating enough cash flow from selling self-help stuff to keep funding more esoteric consciousness raising activities and theoretical projects.
* other than Vervaeke's extensive online course series on the "Sense Making Crisis"