Unfortunately one dead Palestinian seems to be worth five live Palestinians to Hamas, and Israel seems to be done with giving a shit what the world thinks about them, or playing right into the Hamas propaganda engine, figuring they'll sort it all out when Hamas doesn't exist anymore.
Either way neither of the belligerents seems to concern themselves about Palestinian deaths anymore. Human shields will die, Hamas will blame Israel, Israel will blame Hamas, and the whole region is likely to end up on fire soon.
I agree with most of what you say...but I’m finding a lot of sympathy for the Gazan Palestinians, in the news, online, at campuses etc. it’s not that no one cares, it just this situation doesn’t seem to have a workable solution, a humane solution. Unfortunately the nations in a position to have most influence to help Palestinians, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, etc. don’t seem to want to get very involved.
Thanks! I didn't mean to imply that nobody cares. Clearly that is not the case.
Mostly that Hamas and Likud just see Palestinians as means to an end at best, and the regional Islamic states simply don't want them, but will happily use them as an excuse to hate Israel (who is doing little to not earn that hate, but the idea that "they'll hate us anyway, may as well fucking go" is carrying perhaps more than a little truth right now)
The monkey in the jam here might well be the West in general and the United States in particular who Israel is very reliant on for a good number of things. The Biden administration is under a lot of pressure from the party as of late to pull back on support of Bibi's government and war largely due to the magnitude of the pro-palestinian protests, Biden's cratering popularity, and a schism within the party over support of Israel that may give Trump an inroad to an "unthinkable" second term. It's crisis time in the democrat party, for sure, and our fair-weather ally Israel may find itself cut off.
Equating the horrific Hamas attack on civilians with the IDF attack on Hamas which inevitably involves civilian casualties (because Hamas uses civilians as human shields) is despicable.
I make no moral equivalencies one direction or another, just like I made none the last two articles. If you're here for moral equivalencies you're reading the wrong blog. We don't do morals here.
In case you hadn't noticed, the population of Gaza is not able to flee _anywhere_ so end up as 'human shields' whether by default or by design. Do provide some stats explaining why such a high proportion of Gazan casualties are children, based on the high proportion of the Gazan population being children in the first place. AKA 'they breed like flies'. Well done on linking 'horrific' and 'Hamas' in the first four words, per Hasbara good practice.
The tit for tat isn’t fair. The entire situation is tragic. Hamas intentionally targeted civilians and civilian outposts in its attack. Their terrorists are intentionally situated in civilian population centers where they know civilian casualties will be high...they count on it. Hamas is intent on killing Jews and ultimately destroying Israel. The elimination of terrorists is an accepted goal of our western world. Without the full cooperation and aid from the rest of the Arab world to achieve that goal, what recourse does Israel have? In the best of worlds, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and other mid east nations where US aid is received would join forces of the west to use embargoes, sanctions and yes, invasion of the Gaza Strip and /or Iran to weed out Hamas once and for all. But, we all know that is a pipe dream.
I make no moral equivalencies one direction or another, just like I made none the last two articles. If you're here for moral equivalencies you're reading the wrong blog. We don't do morals here.
Making moral equivalencies wasn’t my intent. I was pointing out the difference between the actions of Israel vs Hamas. I guess you are right there, as the intention behind the acts reflects the morality. But I think these are important to consider how many now are killed...by actions of one or the other. It’s all horrific to me, what human beings do to one another...and why.
If you're looking for a Morality Calculus article, this one isn't too bad and is fairly comprehensive, but I won't defend it because I simply don't care enough to do so.
I'd say it breaks probably 65% towards Israel, all told, but my take might not be accurate, and I don't really care if it is or it isn't.
Very good synopsis. It filled in some holes in my understanding of the region’s history. Also appreciated the comments…serious reflections on the issues. Thank you!
I may have missed something, but I don’t understand….do you not take a position here or is it you just don’t want to defend your position? I care because as an American I am participating in this war. The US is too powerful for its citizenry to not care where, when or why we intervene in or support wars. Not saying that you don’t care, because I’m not sure, but it’s why I try to understand it.
I don't think you've internalized the main lesson from covid. We have *absolutely no idea* of what is really going on over there because everything comes from the same media that *we know will blatantly lie about anything and everything*. Some of the first combat images from Ukraine were from a video game. The infamous burnt Jewish babies picture was an AI fake. Truth exists, but we can't know it from here.
Really? That level of cynicism is the death of democracy. If you can’t find information sources you can rely,mat least most of the time, you haven’t engaged very much. If you can’t believe there is a war going on and don’t know enough about the complicated and violent history of the region, and the history of Jews, you are not engaged. I can find enough online and elsewhere to at least understand how tragic this situation is. Also, given the role our country, and others, will inevitably play...I think every has to get past that level of cynicism because it’s just a cop out. Quit complaining about the media...dig deeper.
Interesting maths, and implacable logic behind. So long as counting will be the name of the game, there will be no end to it because no-one will agree on the counting methodology. Someone will always have more victims to deplore than the neighbour. And on and on with casualties in the name of accurate counting. Thank you for pointing to the absurd, which guns' smoke tend to hide
Maybe I should have put it differently. Biden normed Israeli 10/7 losses to US population. He did that — pretty honestly — to encourage Americans to comprehend the magnitude of the loss Israelis suffered. To have any meaning, it must have a moral basis. Doing ratios strips the moral component.
Then what is the point of the exercise? If it is merely a matter of ratios, then it is merely gruesome word problem for middle-schoolers. To be something more than that requires a moral component to which ratios alone cannot speak.
I make no moral equivalencies one direction or another, just like I made none the last two articles. If you're here for moral equivalencies you're reading the wrong blog. We don't do morals here.
Out of curiosity I decided to try it on the next most recent worldwide traumatic event before 9/11.
Based on Wikipedia:
WW2 direct casualties are low end 50 million on a world population of 2 billion estimated, on a per 100,000 basis, that's 500 to 20,000, or 1 in 40
divided by the number of days from Sept 1, 1939 to Sept 2, 1945 (exactly 6 years and 1 day with 2 leap years 1940 and 1944 - so 365 x 4 + 366 x 2 + 1) = 2,193 days
50 million over 2,193 days = roughly 22,800/2 billion per day, or 0.2 per hundred thousand.
This is the lowest possible number since I used estimated world population rather than figuring all the nations formally in the war for the demonimator, but I hope to see that the longer they go, the lower the toll.
I feel same as you. Don’t care about the answer to any of those questions. I guess where we differ is that I don’t care how many die on either side. I struggle to care through all the problems that have stacked up in our own house. We should have our own house in order before we start helping or caring about others. America is in bad shape amigo.
Unfortunately one dead Palestinian seems to be worth five live Palestinians to Hamas, and Israel seems to be done with giving a shit what the world thinks about them, or playing right into the Hamas propaganda engine, figuring they'll sort it all out when Hamas doesn't exist anymore.
Either way neither of the belligerents seems to concern themselves about Palestinian deaths anymore. Human shields will die, Hamas will blame Israel, Israel will blame Hamas, and the whole region is likely to end up on fire soon.
I agree with most of what you say...but I’m finding a lot of sympathy for the Gazan Palestinians, in the news, online, at campuses etc. it’s not that no one cares, it just this situation doesn’t seem to have a workable solution, a humane solution. Unfortunately the nations in a position to have most influence to help Palestinians, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, etc. don’t seem to want to get very involved.
Thanks! I didn't mean to imply that nobody cares. Clearly that is not the case.
Mostly that Hamas and Likud just see Palestinians as means to an end at best, and the regional Islamic states simply don't want them, but will happily use them as an excuse to hate Israel (who is doing little to not earn that hate, but the idea that "they'll hate us anyway, may as well fucking go" is carrying perhaps more than a little truth right now)
The monkey in the jam here might well be the West in general and the United States in particular who Israel is very reliant on for a good number of things. The Biden administration is under a lot of pressure from the party as of late to pull back on support of Bibi's government and war largely due to the magnitude of the pro-palestinian protests, Biden's cratering popularity, and a schism within the party over support of Israel that may give Trump an inroad to an "unthinkable" second term. It's crisis time in the democrat party, for sure, and our fair-weather ally Israel may find itself cut off.
Equating the horrific Hamas attack on civilians with the IDF attack on Hamas which inevitably involves civilian casualties (because Hamas uses civilians as human shields) is despicable.
I make no moral equivalencies one direction or another, just like I made none the last two articles. If you're here for moral equivalencies you're reading the wrong blog. We don't do morals here.
In case you hadn't noticed, the population of Gaza is not able to flee _anywhere_ so end up as 'human shields' whether by default or by design. Do provide some stats explaining why such a high proportion of Gazan casualties are children, based on the high proportion of the Gazan population being children in the first place. AKA 'they breed like flies'. Well done on linking 'horrific' and 'Hamas' in the first four words, per Hasbara good practice.
The tit for tat isn’t fair. The entire situation is tragic. Hamas intentionally targeted civilians and civilian outposts in its attack. Their terrorists are intentionally situated in civilian population centers where they know civilian casualties will be high...they count on it. Hamas is intent on killing Jews and ultimately destroying Israel. The elimination of terrorists is an accepted goal of our western world. Without the full cooperation and aid from the rest of the Arab world to achieve that goal, what recourse does Israel have? In the best of worlds, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and other mid east nations where US aid is received would join forces of the west to use embargoes, sanctions and yes, invasion of the Gaza Strip and /or Iran to weed out Hamas once and for all. But, we all know that is a pipe dream.
I make no moral equivalencies one direction or another, just like I made none the last two articles. If you're here for moral equivalencies you're reading the wrong blog. We don't do morals here.
Making moral equivalencies wasn’t my intent. I was pointing out the difference between the actions of Israel vs Hamas. I guess you are right there, as the intention behind the acts reflects the morality. But I think these are important to consider how many now are killed...by actions of one or the other. It’s all horrific to me, what human beings do to one another...and why.
If you're looking for a Morality Calculus article, this one isn't too bad and is fairly comprehensive, but I won't defend it because I simply don't care enough to do so.
I'd say it breaks probably 65% towards Israel, all told, but my take might not be accurate, and I don't really care if it is or it isn't.
https://ymeskhout.substack.com/p/the-jewish-conspiracy-to-change-my
Very good synopsis. It filled in some holes in my understanding of the region’s history. Also appreciated the comments…serious reflections on the issues. Thank you!
I may have missed something, but I don’t understand….do you not take a position here or is it you just don’t want to defend your position? I care because as an American I am participating in this war. The US is too powerful for its citizenry to not care where, when or why we intervene in or support wars. Not saying that you don’t care, because I’m not sure, but it’s why I try to understand it.
I avoided taking any public position but I dropped a paragraph about it in the housekeeping post yesterday.
https://hwfo.substack.com/p/hwfo-housekeeping-for-november-2023
I guess using just a numeric comparison isn’t very helpful ... or maybe it is.
I don't think you've internalized the main lesson from covid. We have *absolutely no idea* of what is really going on over there because everything comes from the same media that *we know will blatantly lie about anything and everything*. Some of the first combat images from Ukraine were from a video game. The infamous burnt Jewish babies picture was an AI fake. Truth exists, but we can't know it from here.
Really? That level of cynicism is the death of democracy. If you can’t find information sources you can rely,mat least most of the time, you haven’t engaged very much. If you can’t believe there is a war going on and don’t know enough about the complicated and violent history of the region, and the history of Jews, you are not engaged. I can find enough online and elsewhere to at least understand how tragic this situation is. Also, given the role our country, and others, will inevitably play...I think every has to get past that level of cynicism because it’s just a cop out. Quit complaining about the media...dig deeper.
Just use your head. Does what you read and see and hear make sense?
Interesting maths, and implacable logic behind. So long as counting will be the name of the game, there will be no end to it because no-one will agree on the counting methodology. Someone will always have more victims to deplore than the neighbour. And on and on with casualties in the name of accurate counting. Thank you for pointing to the absurd, which guns' smoke tend to hide
Maybe I should have put it differently. Biden normed Israeli 10/7 losses to US population. He did that — pretty honestly — to encourage Americans to comprehend the magnitude of the loss Israelis suffered. To have any meaning, it must have a moral basis. Doing ratios strips the moral component.
Then what is the point of the exercise? If it is merely a matter of ratios, then it is merely gruesome word problem for middle-schoolers. To be something more than that requires a moral component to which ratios alone cannot speak.
Yes!
Left off a zero on the J6 one. Your previous article said (correctly) 0.0012, not 0.012
Unfortunately for the Gazans the ratio their fellows in "The Struggle Against The Zionist Entity" established in 2006 that 1 Israeli = 1,000+ Arabs.
That is about how I feel about all this dumb ass stupidity.
“Israel’s retaliation seems to be 15 9/11’s per day ...”
Moral and numerical equivalence aren’t remotely the same.
I make no moral equivalencies one direction or another, just like I made none the last two articles. If you're here for moral equivalencies you're reading the wrong blog. We don't do morals here.
Out of curiosity I decided to try it on the next most recent worldwide traumatic event before 9/11.
Based on Wikipedia:
WW2 direct casualties are low end 50 million on a world population of 2 billion estimated, on a per 100,000 basis, that's 500 to 20,000, or 1 in 40
divided by the number of days from Sept 1, 1939 to Sept 2, 1945 (exactly 6 years and 1 day with 2 leap years 1940 and 1944 - so 365 x 4 + 366 x 2 + 1) = 2,193 days
50 million over 2,193 days = roughly 22,800/2 billion per day, or 0.2 per hundred thousand.
This is the lowest possible number since I used estimated world population rather than figuring all the nations formally in the war for the demonimator, but I hope to see that the longer they go, the lower the toll.
I hope.
I feel same as you. Don’t care about the answer to any of those questions. I guess where we differ is that I don’t care how many die on either side. I struggle to care through all the problems that have stacked up in our own house. We should have our own house in order before we start helping or caring about others. America is in bad shape amigo.
Vaguely related:
https://twitter.com/tgof137/status/1436812720809013250
Ooo nice.
Covid first wave was six Nine Elevens.
So is Hamas the moral equivalent of those who spread anti-vax conspiracy theories? Ugh forget I said that, ethical Rat King